Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:44 pm
bqbowden,
I hope not because that sounds about like what I have planned.
I hope not because that sounds about like what I have planned.
Page 3 of 4
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:26 pm
That's what I'd do if using the luan spoken of in this thread.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:44 am
Can anyone tell me if the Luan we are talking about here is the same as the Luan for sale in Australia? I spotted some in Bunnings and thought it looked ok for my first buildjem wrote:That's what I'd do if using the luan spoken of in this thread.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:23 am
G'day Barry, and welcome aboard mate. 
I would also recommend fibreglassing inside and out of All panels - including the decks.
Once you cut your panels, lay them on a flat surface so that the entire panel is on that flat surface and weigh them down so they don't warp. leave them like this until you are ready to start stitching. Take your time, read the build instructions several times - then read them again. If in doubt - re-read them and ask questions here.
G'day Earvin,
Seems there is a pretty strong Aussie Laker contingent forming at the moment and with good reason. These really are great boats.
Re Bunnings Luan, if it is the same (and I don't think that it is) be very careful with what you buy from them. We have a Bunnings near here, and the stuff they are selling as Luan is the worst ply I have ever seen. full of voids - badly warped and also damaged veneers.
Australian Wood Panels now sell a type of malaysian ply that they are marketing as Luan. I got some from them just to have a look at it and to use for temp frames but it is way too nice for that. (it is also way cheaper than Bunnings)
The "Luan" from AWP has a light side and a darker side and is only a little heavier than the Gaboon that i used to be able to get. (perhaps a kilo or so per sheet.
There are several questions in your post mate. Luan should be fine but i would recommend getting the 4mm thick stuff as opposed to the 3mm (1/8") Particularly so for a first build. It is easier to work with and should be only marginally more expensive than the thin stuff.Okay. I have been scouting out the posts. I want to build a Laker 13 as my first boat and I want to make my first boat "on the cheap". This is because I have been told I will build another boat. It seems everyone in here agrees you will make mistakes on your first boat. So ... if I buy the cheaper luan at $10 a sheet from Lowes/Home Depot I should be okay, provided I use the "flashlight method" to make sure I lay out my plans to cut around the voids. Also, it seems everyone is in agreement that you should glass the entire boat because you are using a cheaper material to build the boat.
So, have I missed anything?
Barry
I would also recommend fibreglassing inside and out of All panels - including the decks.
Once you cut your panels, lay them on a flat surface so that the entire panel is on that flat surface and weigh them down so they don't warp. leave them like this until you are ready to start stitching. Take your time, read the build instructions several times - then read them again. If in doubt - re-read them and ask questions here.
G'day Earvin,
Seems there is a pretty strong Aussie Laker contingent forming at the moment and with good reason. These really are great boats.
Re Bunnings Luan, if it is the same (and I don't think that it is) be very careful with what you buy from them. We have a Bunnings near here, and the stuff they are selling as Luan is the worst ply I have ever seen. full of voids - badly warped and also damaged veneers.
Australian Wood Panels now sell a type of malaysian ply that they are marketing as Luan. I got some from them just to have a look at it and to use for temp frames but it is way too nice for that. (it is also way cheaper than Bunnings)
The "Luan" from AWP has a light side and a darker side and is only a little heavier than the Gaboon that i used to be able to get. (perhaps a kilo or so per sheet.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:19 pm
It seems that the definition of "luan" is expanding rapidly to meet the various types of plywood that someone is selling.
Does anyone know what the new grading system is? The old one made sense with "A", "B", "C", and "D" quality finishes and underlayment. I can't make any thing out of the system that uses "BS 1088".
It would seem to me that if we start talking about plywood as graded rather than as named, it could be more descriptive, and therefore more usefully accurate? I'm too fat and lazy to find out for myself, so I ask.
Does anyone know what the new grading system is? The old one made sense with "A", "B", "C", and "D" quality finishes and underlayment. I can't make any thing out of the system that uses "BS 1088".
It would seem to me that if we start talking about plywood as graded rather than as named, it could be more descriptive, and therefore more usefully accurate? I'm too fat and lazy to find out for myself, so I ask.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:28 pm
Jask,
BS1088, is a British standard and it specifies certain levels of laminate and glue quality to be used before it can be graded and marketed as such - in Britain. These standards don't necessarily apply in countries other than Britain.
Australia has a similar standard and I am pretty sure the US would also.
The thing is, that BS 1088 seems to have become sort of a generic international standard for marine ply when, in fact, much of that ply sold in countries other than Great Britain probably does not meet that Standard.
Our ply distributors here seem to be marketing ply under whatever name comes in handy at the time.
Bunnings are a franchise home hardware chain of pretty big proportions for here. They sell everything from timber products to power tools to plumbing & electrical goods to gardening needs and much more. Sort of a one stop, home handyman store. Their ply generally, is not of good quality and is way overpriced for what it is. I buy my cheap Chinese allmost disposable power tools there - sometimes.
BS1088, is a British standard and it specifies certain levels of laminate and glue quality to be used before it can be graded and marketed as such - in Britain. These standards don't necessarily apply in countries other than Britain.
Australia has a similar standard and I am pretty sure the US would also.
The thing is, that BS 1088 seems to have become sort of a generic international standard for marine ply when, in fact, much of that ply sold in countries other than Great Britain probably does not meet that Standard.
Our ply distributors here seem to be marketing ply under whatever name comes in handy at the time.
Bunnings are a franchise home hardware chain of pretty big proportions for here. They sell everything from timber products to power tools to plumbing & electrical goods to gardening needs and much more. Sort of a one stop, home handyman store. Their ply generally, is not of good quality and is way overpriced for what it is. I buy my cheap Chinese allmost disposable power tools there - sometimes.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:48 pm
Let me make a suggestion. Let's all ask our plywood stores for a copy of the standards for grading their plywoods. then, we can each (laboriously) type these in and post them.
Once each of us has the standards in hand, it may be easier to buy the stuff, discuss it, and use it?
Once each of us has the standards in hand, it may be easier to buy the stuff, discuss it, and use it?
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:37 pm
The following is the criteria that must be met for a panel to be "legally" marked and marketed as BS1088. I havent heard of any counterfeit BS1088 being marketed. All the BS1088 panels I have ever bought (I dont build with luan) had a Lloyd's of London stamp along with the BS1088 marking.
As far as I know there is no standard that Luan has to met. Any core material is OK, any glue is ok, variation in thickness is ok, any face veneer is ok. That is why I say that Luan bought in Florida may be (act) different than luan bought in Texas, Australia, Canada, England, Scotland, Maine, Iowa, North Carolina or even where I live in Florida. While any BS1088 bought from any of those places would act the same as a piece bought from anywhere else.
From Wikipedia:
In materials, the BS 1088 specification is a marine plywood specification that applies to plywood produced with untreated tropical hardwood veneers that have a set level of resistance to fungal attack. The plies are bonded with WBP glue. Although the initials BS are for "British Standard", the finished product does not have to be "British made". The standard is associated with Lloyd's of London since it performs testing of products to this standard.
WBP Glue Line -- BS 1088 plywood must use an adhesive proven to be very resistant to weather, micro-organisms, cold and boiling water, and steam and dry heat. The product's bonding must pass a series of British Standard tests.
Face Veneers -- These must present a solid surface that is free from open defects. Face veneers must be free of knots other than "sound pin" knots, and there can be no more than an average of two such knots per square foot over the entire surface of the plywood sheet. The veneers must be reasonably free from irregular grain. The use of edge joints is limited, and end joints are not allowed.
Core Veneers -- Core veneers have the same basic requirements as face veneers, except that small splits are allowed, and there is no limit on the number of pin knots or edge joints. However, end joints are not permitted.
Limits of Manufacturing Defects -- Defective bonds, pleats and overlaps, and gaps in faces are not permitted. Occasional gaps may be repaired using veneer inserts bonded with the proper adhesive.
Moisture Content -- BS 1088 plywood must have a moisture content between 6% and 14% when it leaves the factory.
Finishing -- Boards will be sanded on both sides equally.
Length & Width -- The length or width of a board produced as a standard size shall not be less than the specified size nor more than 6.3 mm (0.25") greater than the specified size.
Squareness -- The lengths of the diagonals of a board shall not differ by more than 0.25% of the length of the diagonal.
Thickness Tolerances -- Tolerances vary as follows.
* 4 mm +.02/-0.6 6 mm +.04/-0.65 9 mm +.06/-0.75 12 mm +.09/-0.82
* 15 mm +.1/-0.9 18 mm +.12/-0.98 22 mm +.16/-1.08 25 mm +1.8/-1.16
From the above we can assume that 6 mm material will arrive at thickness' between 6.04 mm and 5.35 mm.
Face Veneer thickness -- For any three-ply construction, which applies to 3 and 4 mm material, each face veneer shall be not thinner than 1/8 of the total thickness of veneers assembled dry. Since the dry thicknesses of the boards are 3.6 and 4.6 respectively, we can assume that for these thicknesses only the face veneers will be as follows:
* 3.6 mm dry x 12.5% (1/8 ) = 0.45 mm 4.6 mm dry x 12.5% (1/8 ) = 0.575 mm
Multi-Ply Construction-- This applies to boards thicker than 4.8 mm (3/16")
* Each face veneer shall be a minimum of 1.3 mm and not thicker than 3.8 mm.
* Each core veneer shall be no thicker than 4.8 mm
As far as I know there is no standard that Luan has to met. Any core material is OK, any glue is ok, variation in thickness is ok, any face veneer is ok. That is why I say that Luan bought in Florida may be (act) different than luan bought in Texas, Australia, Canada, England, Scotland, Maine, Iowa, North Carolina or even where I live in Florida. While any BS1088 bought from any of those places would act the same as a piece bought from anywhere else.
From Wikipedia:
In materials, the BS 1088 specification is a marine plywood specification that applies to plywood produced with untreated tropical hardwood veneers that have a set level of resistance to fungal attack. The plies are bonded with WBP glue. Although the initials BS are for "British Standard", the finished product does not have to be "British made". The standard is associated with Lloyd's of London since it performs testing of products to this standard.
WBP Glue Line -- BS 1088 plywood must use an adhesive proven to be very resistant to weather, micro-organisms, cold and boiling water, and steam and dry heat. The product's bonding must pass a series of British Standard tests.
Face Veneers -- These must present a solid surface that is free from open defects. Face veneers must be free of knots other than "sound pin" knots, and there can be no more than an average of two such knots per square foot over the entire surface of the plywood sheet. The veneers must be reasonably free from irregular grain. The use of edge joints is limited, and end joints are not allowed.
Core Veneers -- Core veneers have the same basic requirements as face veneers, except that small splits are allowed, and there is no limit on the number of pin knots or edge joints. However, end joints are not permitted.
Limits of Manufacturing Defects -- Defective bonds, pleats and overlaps, and gaps in faces are not permitted. Occasional gaps may be repaired using veneer inserts bonded with the proper adhesive.
Moisture Content -- BS 1088 plywood must have a moisture content between 6% and 14% when it leaves the factory.
Finishing -- Boards will be sanded on both sides equally.
Length & Width -- The length or width of a board produced as a standard size shall not be less than the specified size nor more than 6.3 mm (0.25") greater than the specified size.
Squareness -- The lengths of the diagonals of a board shall not differ by more than 0.25% of the length of the diagonal.
Thickness Tolerances -- Tolerances vary as follows.
* 4 mm +.02/-0.6 6 mm +.04/-0.65 9 mm +.06/-0.75 12 mm +.09/-0.82
* 15 mm +.1/-0.9 18 mm +.12/-0.98 22 mm +.16/-1.08 25 mm +1.8/-1.16
From the above we can assume that 6 mm material will arrive at thickness' between 6.04 mm and 5.35 mm.
Face Veneer thickness -- For any three-ply construction, which applies to 3 and 4 mm material, each face veneer shall be not thinner than 1/8 of the total thickness of veneers assembled dry. Since the dry thicknesses of the boards are 3.6 and 4.6 respectively, we can assume that for these thicknesses only the face veneers will be as follows:
* 3.6 mm dry x 12.5% (1/8 ) = 0.45 mm 4.6 mm dry x 12.5% (1/8 ) = 0.575 mm
Multi-Ply Construction-- This applies to boards thicker than 4.8 mm (3/16")
* Each face veneer shall be a minimum of 1.3 mm and not thicker than 3.8 mm.
* Each core veneer shall be no thicker than 4.8 mm
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:34 pm
You did much better than me, Mike. I blew 40 minutes at he "Pro Desk" of the local Home Depot, only to end up with what we used to call an Okinawan salute. Unknowing expression on vacant face, shrug of shoulders, palms outstretched upwards, and sucking air where a tooth should have been.
I'll googleize and see if there are some more standards out there. Then, we buyers can approach the task much better informed than just asking, "Got any plywood today?"
I'll googleize and see if there are some more standards out there. Then, we buyers can approach the task much better informed than just asking, "Got any plywood today?"
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:41 pm
It's worth calling around the local lumber yards. They tend to have better stuff than Home Depot or Lowes.